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tv   Panel Discussion on Big Money and Philanthropy  CSPAN  March 12, 2017 6:57am-7:59am EDT

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into future years to nasa. and yet, there was still that tension. still that feeling that it was not just about the moon. it was about really understanding our solar system. >> nathalia holt, you mentioned in the panel discussion that your next book is on disney animators. how did you find that? >> is still very in the early days so i cannot talk about it too much. just an exceptional group of women that work. artists and animators of walt disney studios that started in the 1930s. it is a very small group of women. they have so much influence on these classic films. they are responsible for advancing much of the technology at disney. in the technology at disney is very exceptional. especially in the early days of what they were able to accomplish. they also had a very interesting role in gender as well. i'm having so much fun learning about all of these subjects and
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i'm excited about this book. >> the book that we have bee to. and booktv's live coverage of the tucson festival of books continues here on the university of arizona.
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we hone you're enjoying the festival and we definitely it invite you to become a friends of the festival today by texting, friend to 520214 book as shown on the sign right over here in the front of the room or visit the friend of the festival booth on the mall your guess makes difference in keeping festival programming tree of chrnlg and supporting critical literacy programs in the community. out of respect for it the authors and fellow audience members please turn off your cell phone at this moment and now i'm o going to introduce our authors here with us today so joe, joe is a veteran political
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journalist he's a founder tore in chief of the memo and editor of large fund of the nation sthiewt. his article have prepared anywhere you host probably ever read them. and he's notably covered every american presidential election since 1980. he's author of man of the world the future endeavors of bill clinton that is what we'll be talking about today also father of nine-year-old twins who are watching this live right now. so -- a little nod to them. >> keep the questions clean. >> exactly. j and he lives in new york city. lisa, lisa napoli is author of ray and joan who made the mcdonald's fortune and woman who gave it all away. in review a dual biography of the man who made mcdonald's ubiquitous and two decades of had her life becoming one of the most generous philanthropist in american history so she actually had intended originally to write a biography solely of joan but
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you can't tell the story without of ray and radio which chronicled her time in and around the time invited to help start a radio station at the dawn of democratic rule there. she grew up in brooklyn but is los angeles transparent currently lives there downtown and runs a volunteer cooking club on skid row. finally, we have sam polk. sam's memoir, "for the love of money a memoir" was publisheded last year and is the cofounder of a for-profit so-- that sells fresh healthy affordable meals for all and is founder of grocery ship, a los angeles nonprofit that works in the intersection of the poverty and obesity. prior to this sam was a senior trader for one of the biggest hedge funds on wall street and
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at the verge of being at the top within offer of an annual bonus of $4 million and he grew angry that was not enough and that was the moment he realized he had to walk away from this obsessive pursuit of money. as lovely as he is he realizedsa wall street where the sole measure of someone's worth was there worth was not for-- was their wealth was not for him. welcome. we are so excited to have them. [applause]. >> happy to be here. >> i thought we would start with an opening question that would allow you a little insight to what their books are about if you haven't had a chance to pico them up, but i would love to know and start off if there was a moment that brought you incredible clarity around where your book was going, was her and interview moment where all of a sudden you like saw your way through the fog?
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or sam, you are in the moments where you realize kind of what would be the area important looking back and telling the story. >> so, in 08-09 i had been on wall street for like seven years in the crash was happening and it was a crazy time on wall street and lehman brothers was going down and the whole world was shaking and our hedge fund was in a decent position and we were not losing money, but it was a scary time and everyone around me was terrified and i had to sort of been going through this process where i wa starting to question a lot about what i was doing and where i was standing in the world in the crash exasperated that and if so i remember being in a meeting with my billionaire boss who was one of the smartest guys i'dsm ever met and several other traders were in the room talking
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about the hedge fund regulations proposed by congress and everyone thought they were a terrible idea. i was starting to think theyai made sense, so i said so and i said, wouldn't this be better for the system as a whole and there was this terrible moments where it was like the music had been turned off and my boss leaned across the table and shocked me this withering glare and said, sam, i don't have the brain capacity to think about the system as a whole. i can only think about what's good for us in our business and the candidly it wasn't so much-- i mean, i did judge him, but i did recognize himself and myself and him and for me my whole life-- my book is really about ambition and my relationshipt, with my dad, but my whole life been about crawling to the top in getting this money and prestige in this business card and i think it not moment i
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say-- is working to understandt that there was something off about that and that i also did not want that. for the first time that sort of ambition came to be no longer worth it. >> i would say for me i had a red mcdonald's wasn't helping me with the book nor was jones family and most of race family was not helping at that point either so i was left to my owned -- own devices and i found a tiny 1 inch item, an old newspaper 1971 the saying joan had filed for divorce from ray. they did not even name her. they just said the wife of mcdonald's ceo filed for divorce citing violence and his temper. joan had not married ready until 1965. they had had a long affair and there were other spouses involved before they married and i was curious to find out more
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about this and i had to call the cook county courthouse to get the divorce record and it was quite a trial to do that. it took a while and finally the papers arrived and i said on the floor of our home office in downtown la graciously reading these papers from many years ago and i found out the details of the divorce that joan was alleging against ray and hearing it, reading it in my mind and hearing it and imagining hergoin going through this quite a painful situation and i realized that i had known joan started and alcoholism education charity with raise money when she waset able to get ray help and that was interesting, but knowing at that moment on the floor in my office that the depth of their despair in their problems really
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made me realize i had to keep going until her story of how she transcended that was so incredibly grateful-- graceful. >> so, i took eight years or may be more to write my book. it began when i went to to africa with bill clinton to write a profile of him for esquire magazine in 2005 in oneh of the things that happened on that trip was i got to see the beginning of the hiv-aids program he had started which was to bring medicine to people suffering from aids in africa and elsewhere in the world where it was thought it was unaffordable to provide them with healthcare and basically that was the western world of that we will let tens of millions of people died. clinton said no, he and nelson mandela and he started this little program that started small and africa in 2005 and had been underway for a couple years.
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he went off the coast of kenya, this magical place that a lot of people there were suffering fron aids and they were kind of hidden. it was a muslim country and there was a lot of stigma attached to it then and i met some families there who were getting relief and medicine and other support from clinton's organization including some small children who were there with their parents.s. for their mothers.ack eight years later we went back to them the bar in 2013. i went back with clinton and we went to the same organization that had brought these patients to clinton's group in the first place, organization of families
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with hiv or aids who had banded together to protect themselves from society. now it had grown and was respected and out in open and had hundreds of members who were all getting medication and other support and there was a young man there, teenager, i guess who had a sign that he held up when clinton came and it had a picture of a little child on it and that was him and i had met that beloit eight years earlier when he was a young child, little child who had hiv and probably would have died along with his mother and they werei both alive and he came up to clinton and i saw clinton began to weep and that's when i knew that was the core of the book. did to help me shape the bow, but i knew this was what was p essential, the story that people i think didn't know about what he had done and what it was about. >> thank you.>> i i'm curious now, i mean, all of these books are about-- at the core they are kind of the tension of giving, big wealth
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and these the contributions to society whether those are kind of threw charisma in the case of bill clinton-- bill clinton or billions of dollars in the case of joan kroc and i'm curious from all of you reading your books they were certainly different ways that each person's personality is used it to leverage kind of thefill philanthropy they choose to move ford with, but what are the notable changes in the behaviore of these individuals that you saw as you are researching their books or being the person we're talking about, kind of behaviors that changed for you all as individuals or your focus points as individuals, how did they change over time? how did giving make them different. >> for joan it was when ray died in 1984 that her philanthropy really took off. she had started this alcoholism education charity operation
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before that, but when he passed away at 84 and she found herself at 55 years old one of the richest women in the world with about half a million dollars, that's pretty awesome and inspiring and it was the moment that a gunman went into a mcdonald's not far from where john was living at the time and shot up the place. it was the worst mass shooting in american history at the time and joan was at this moment where she was a relatively new widow with the opportunity too assert her authority as the largest single individual shareholder, which she never did and she was just sort of cominga into her own and she responded to this terrible tragedy in aa mcdonald's by calling a newsre conference the very next day, announcing she was starting a victims fund with her own money
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and almost challenging mcdonald's to participate also. that kind of moment over time i think that gave her a taste of how incredible it was that she had this money and the ability to do something magnificent with it in overtime she basically closed it down her foundation and decided she just wanted to do checkbook giving. when she met someone shoot she thought was doing something interesting she would give them a check. she didn't care if she had a tax write off. she just wanted to respond and that, to me, was so fascinating. there was not a conventional philanthropy, very reactive and sometimes strategic and that definitely all began in 1984. >> so, with clinton i think the changes were kind of subtle and mean there were ways in which
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philanthropy was a way he did it was similar to being a politician, so he didn't have to change that much. when he started the aids program he got on the phone to friends of his who are still heads of states, so the prime minister of canada said how much are you boys and four, basically. on going to do this and i need money and they gave him tens of millions of dollars to buy these drugs, so there were similarities and similarly raising money from other kinds of individuals, i mean, as a politician he raise a lot of money by means that were admirable but in the world of running an operating charity, not a foundation, the operating charity where you are trying tog bring money in your raising money from wealthy individuals much the way people did in politics until sanders changed the game a bit, so changes were
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subtle, but there was what i observed which was that when he was president he had supported patents on pharmaceutical drugs. europe and other companies wanted patton said it mary-- made hard for generic aidsds medication to be produced and al gore had gotten in trouble when he was running for president because the us government under clinton and gore had protected the patents in international forms from being broken so that more of the drugs could be produced cheaper and he completely changed his position when he got out of office and switched to the other side and got big fight with pharmaceutical companies and he said we are going to make the generics and that's it and they did and broke the strangleholdd of the generic drug companies, which has led to many more people being able to get aids drugs, so in that way he was noticeably deliberated not been in office anymore and having toc
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do what people expected the us administration to do which was to protect american patents, not anymore because he got up ii stayed with nelson mandela and said we are going to change this and they did. >> you know, i guess my answer to the question i just want alike talk about this idea of giving and the sort of standard or sortable way that sort of philanthropy has worked in this country where it's a lot like ray kroc in the kroc family where you sort of spend your life accumulating money through a business pursuits and then at some point whether it's probably your 50s or 60s, sorted the end of the career you stop accumulated and immediately hit it and give them anyway and i think the long and short of it is that sort of not working and i think there are a few reasons for that. first of all, this internal issue of you build up a lot ofae
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sensibilities and skills in defense mechanisms as you accumulate that wealth and also some distance, i think, from folks who are sort of living in poverty and need to structure will help, so that part in general and i think the second thing is that the truth of the matter is is that businesses arr just profamily stronger economic vehicles than nonprofits can ever be. we think about you raise money and start this business that grows organically and generates a prophet and economic powerat overtime. a nonprofit is the opposite. you have to raise money every single year, 100% of your revenue and he basically can't hire skilled people or really pay them much for a long time because donors don't like you ts pay long-- high salaries to those folks and there's no equity to incentivize people that there is an like silicon valley, so you have the structure of where businesses
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are creating this economic power and wealth and nonprofits arepr setting out to fix some problems in the said society, someone of which are caused by business and some are, but they are sort of like major problems and nonprofits, because they are under resourced and don't have that structural power can to really fix those problems. they are always under resourced and less powerful, so all thiss is to say that like for me i have been thinking about this and this idea of like so far there has been this sort of like viper kidded idea where you either have to make a lot of money and set out to be successful and that's what you are doing or you have to show that or go work for the peace corps and not making money and live in a hut, basically. there is something about that, i think, that leads to profound unhappiness on both sides which is that i think humans are very complicated complex people with
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multitude moment-- motivation, some of which we are interested in some of the common good in helping people and bringing a society together and in the standard sort of structure of giving those two things are split, so you have business people that really like their money and really care about their companies and are doing a tremendous amount of good in the world by creating jobs that pain people and making positive changes in the world through their business, but a lot of times those same folks feel in my opinion or my experience feel hollow like something is missing and then you have people doing good in the world and feel satisfied by that work, but live in a crummy apartment and wish they had more money and couldha invest in these things that business folks have, so it's all a long way of saying like i do think the social enterprise movement, which is basically a
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movement about socially conscious businesses and organizations that can harness the economic power business with a sort of philanthropy mindset are sort of what is necessary in this because at the emitted a no matter how smart philanthropy gets or how democratic or coordinated those sort of organizations in my opinion sort of are going to have top times fixing the issues. >> let's stick with that idea ow people breaking rules as how people are giving right now and one of-- one side of the spectrum of how we look at this if we look at joan in the way we think about the way she was giving in one of my favoritemi stores in the book is when john was like in the midst of giving everything away ray had purchased eight the san diego padres at one point and she decided she was going to give the san diego padres rather than selling it and she had been in
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deals with people she did not think were good humans at the unit that day, so she tried to give the san diego padres to the city of san diego and of course like the major league baseball did not approve of the transaction because it would have meant all of their financials became more or less public, so like that's a very different way to think about giving and also if we think about bill clinton he was using the trope of the being a politician to carry forward a be a different type of philanthropy on a different scale, so maybe you can add in and talk about that breaking of the rules that you saw when you are writing the book. >> when i was listening to sam i was thinking that's exactly what thought when he built clinton global initiative, i mean, the theme of that was they had gone-- he gone to the worldd economic forum and given speeches and notice they talked
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a lot about how to fix problems of the world, but then did not do anything, so the idea of clinton global initiative was they would have a conference that he would be able to convene world leaders and corporate leaders and people prominent and very accomplished and the non- profit world to come together because he was clintonliul and n he would make them do something and you could not come to cgi of my shoe committed to do something afterwards and afterys it went on for 14 years and they finally closed it down mostly last year because theas anticipated different kind of election that we ended up having , but by the end what it had accomplished, and a lot of good things came out of it. the most successful projects were the ones that the theatera corporation where people wanted to do something positive with their wealth, their skills, their market access, their supply chain, all of that withat the nonprofit that had an idea,
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problem they were trying to solve and window things were put together they were very effective in dealing with all kinds of things from providing clean water to billions of gallons of clean water, many many problems. so, the social enterprise was one of the ideas motivating clinton global initiative and he was a big supporter of that and still he sees that as one of the most important contributions that he played some part in helping to create consciousness around that. >> joan was a great spirit in search of great ideas. she would have met you and written you a check and if she had met claimed she would have written him a check. she did write jimmy carter several checks. she was an uneducated person who grew up poor and all of a sudden she found herself with her husband's wealth and her husband
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was dead, so it was all her, so it was different than a rich family trying to disperse their wealth. she decided whenever she met someone should-- she didn't decided just happened that way. she met a woman on a plate who told her she wanted to build the first freestanding hospice in san diego and john wrote her a check made it happen because she had put her father and ray hadd gone through hospice care in she knew hospice was important and she admired this woman, doctor about her age who had achievedve this degree, so she made it happen. what i loved about her is that she bucked the convention both of mcdonald's and the conservative corporation and conservative husband and while she didn't have a strategy, she basically fell in love with someone who had a great idea and wanted to make sure it happened whether it was jimmy carter or mr. rogers, fred rogers or
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father ted hesburgh at notre dame. she heard him speak once. she walked up to him and he said he wanted to build a peace institute at notre dame and did not have the money and she said i am joan kroc. you did not know who joan kroc was and he's she said i want to give you the money to build the center, so i live that spirit and it would have been amazing if she had been directed in a different way, but wouldn't it be great, to sam's point quickle , i talk in my bio about this cooking group at a homeless shelter, not to brag about it but because i want everyone to see that a busy person can do that and one of the reasons i love doing it is because it's not just me doing it. on doing it with people here in the audience who do it who love helping and they are not sure how to help, so someone like mef
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who shows up and buys groceries and makes people realize for 20 bugs we are throwing in our time and money and can make a difference and that's what i love about any sort of philanthropy is that it's the model for other people and joan was that.in most of us don't have that kind of wealth, but that impetuous and this is something we all have in us and we are in search of a way to directed. >> first of all-- joan sounds incredibly amazing. >> she would have loved to. >> second, i think i am sort of going to slaughter some sacred cows, but if you think about like i both love-- two things, i love the spirit of volunteerism. getting people to do more and that in and of itself is sort of deeply inefficient. an organization has no employees to show up every day in europe to train them and you can't rely on them to stay there.
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so even like-- i both respect like bill clinton's ideas around that and if you think about it like it's a very democratic way to look at it. bill clinton and big corporation get together, probably big foundation and like decide which ideas they will fund., there is a problem with thatt rc work i both like love nonprofits and nonprofit people, but i'd love a healthy respect for the market and that's just like from the existing startup world and if you think of the business sector like you have walmart has some of the smartest people in the world and all of a sudden amazon comes by and fully disrupts it and hilton and whatever have these great companies or great hotels and air b&b disrupts it. that's not because some big corporation was because it's a good idea.
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it was like for people got together and said were bedrock-- try this. and nonprofits that actually doesn't happen like there's basically a cemetery between startup nonprofit and boys and girls club and the red cross and no one ever sort of crosses that , so what you have is basically big sort ofns that ha philanthropist and corporations and then large and existing foundations that have gone very very good at raising money and are very incentivized to protect their job and no sort of like disruption in the midst of that. >> so, i have to respond to that because-- well, just because it's not what happened at cgi. i agree with what you are saying, but what happened at cgi was-- clinton would not sit in s
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room with someone in a corporation it and decide we're going to fund this or that.peoph hundreds of people would come from the corporate world, nonprofit world. they gave scholarships to that nonprofit and corporate people had to pay to be there and government people also, people from governments around the world and academics as well and they would select each other projects, so for instance procter & gamble came up with a way of purifying water by just dumping a packet of stuff in the water. stirred around. it sits there for an hour and person at the tate's the nasty stuff out and you can drink it and i have drank it myself and apricot and this saves lots of people's lives especially children because diarrhea types of diseases are deadly to some because around the world.. procter & gamble did not have a way to get those pockets of some
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kind of chemical to people out in remote places where they needed them, so they partnered with some big nonprofits, small nonprofits to two creative supply chain that would bring that stuff out and they give it away, a lot of it and that's more how it works, not like clinton sat in a room and said i think procter & gamble should do this. there may have been some of that, but really more of a organic process. and it worked better because of that. i think your criticism is correct and if it had been done that way it would have accomplished little, but it accomplished a lot becausele people work selecting each other basically in a process like what you are describing.ved >> that's why joan dissolved her foundation because once she started getting publicly people started asking and she did not
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want to have to deal with the bureaucracy. she wanted the freedom and liberation. she was allergic to the structure you are talking about also. >> .---- o,yell, i run a nonprofit that exists on a budget of $300,000 a year and we have to raise that money every year at it is like a dog fight every year and there is like it's almost like and i don't mean to say this because i think there is a great sector, but there's almost like a certain level of like hostility for indifference from the foundation sector to nonprofits. like first of all and you understand it right they know 99 out of a hundred people they meet because the need is bigger than the assets, so they develop defense mechanisms and they don't really want to talk and engage with you because they think your going to ask. if you think about how form profits raise money, youce
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basically create a investor deck and you send that to everyone. foundations have a different application process and then you have to do a different one for every single one and once you do it and you get a grant in that rare case you send them specific special updates on that grants, different for each one, so you are ready handicapped by theer fact you have to raise this revenue every year and then you have these huge expense budgets with like your grant writer andt manager that don't exist in the for-profit world and i'm not saying businesses solve everything, but i am saying there is something about this structure that explains why we have a lot of smart people working on smart things and inequality is at its widest point in american history as i understand it. >> i'm going to dive into something earlier that will bring us back to this point in a roundabout way, but you wereg talking about this gap that
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exists between people do weird a lot of money and people receiving this, so this empathy and i'm curious to understandd how you sort of thought it-- sought to gain and within the world, is there a secondary story you write about cracks joke i'm i think it's about the sin-- singaporean president ands president clinton and-- >> sri lankan. >> they were together and wanted to bring in raise attention to specific issues and the sri lankan president essentially said because these adversaries were together she then had the courage to invite her adversary to this large state didn't that everyone was attending. >> this was during the tsunami.
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>> like it was this extendedo empathy, so i would like to hear more about how you think about empathy in this context about how bill or joan gain it or sam, how you are thinking about it. >> one of the things interesting on wall street is sort of how the culture impacts people, so in my own opinion and experience what i saw was this sort of like gradual calcification and reinforcing of defense mechanisms over time and i will give you an example like if youl think about like every singlele super wealthy person that i knew on wall street deeply prided themselves on their own frugality. [laughter] >> but if you think about what that was about i think i think i literally would work with the guys who could burn $50000
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stacks of money every single day and not only with their money knock away, but their net worth would not go down and if you think about what a billionar dollars in the egg represents and if you think about it not as money, but a big silo of food, like it has a lot of power and so in my opinion is that over time people build a moral code to support that and so this frugality is a way of saying i am provable so i deserve this and you must be on frugal, so that's why you're not in this position and that's a very vague generalization for a lot ofnd people and one thing i will say is that some of my closest friends are on wall street and there is that developing culture for that. for me it was like i was sort of like-- i got lucky basically on wall street and by lucky, i mean, like my life right when i
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started wall street was like a complete catastrophe involving arrests and drugs and that led to me getting sober at the beginning of wall street which led to me going into counselingk and so i literally would work during the day reading economic reports and trading bonds, but it night i was talking to a counselor and basically processing deep and pain from mn childhood and there's this process that i think was like teaching me empathy and reconnecting me with the parts of me i had lost touch with ends up some great years in two wall street think different from aa lot of people i had that counts of fate-- calcification pressure. i would hang out with my twin brother who was into social justice in a way that i would talk that i thought was normal about like we are going skiingii this weekend and he's like i can afford it and there was this what i thought of was just average was basically luxury, so
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there was that there was also this painfully earned humilityar from these therapy sessions i think for me kept me open to hard stuff, basically. >> joan had grown up poor and she never forgot that even after she became enormously rich and there are people who become enormously rich and never tap into that reserve, but she could not live with herself even though she lived fantasticallyly and fabulously and headed jack and used it like a pickup truck to ferry people around, but she could not pass by a homeless person or stray dog on the streets without wanting to stop and help and she did stop and help. someone told me earlier she would use her plane to pick up a girl friend of hers in town and they would fly around and bring flowers to nursing home. that is not a calculated strategy to help people, but it is something beautiful and reactive and she did that time
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again. she would see flood victims on television where they would be devastated and they would not know what to do and she would. fly and her girlfriend with 15 million-dollar checks to help people and with the aids epidemic she went to elizabeth taylor and presented her with a million dollars and i could go on and on, but she seemed to have this empathy for people not even just less fortunate than yourself because people didn't have the means it she did, but people and compromised situation she could not pass up and ii think many of us had that feeling, but we would check it you know i can't give that guy an extra five bucks because i don't have that much money, but she didn't have an excuse and she did not make excuses and i don't know how we translate that into the complex issues you are bringing. >> i was going to say actually
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like joan has the answer and all of my life complicated ideas about social enterprise is like if we could all just when we got enough money to start sharing it with everyone that needs it and figure out how to do that then you wouldn't need any of this is stuff that i'm talking about. >> if you are familiar with the giving pledge of people that pledged to give away at least half of their wealth and when i was at marketplace years ago i did a story about a woman who made $40000 a year. she was not in the gates the stratosphere and she pledged to give away half their money and i went to her apartment in oakland and she was making people better and jelly sandwiches out of her own dime, no charity there, no organization buying bottles of water and driving around and giving them to the workers who hang out the parking lights of the home depot and making sure they got food and water and there are probably plenty of people that would argue with that strategy, but that was her
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commitment to give half of her wealth away and i learned a lot watching her. she was the opposite of joan, but inns-- and circumstance, but not in heart and spirit. >> lin-- clinton is the sort of character caricature guy and he was that and people forget because he is relatively wealthy now that he also grew up in poor circumstances. i would not say poverty, but pretty tight circumstances. he was orphaned and his mother worked as a nurse in his grandparents raised him and he did not have any money, so he knows what it's like to be poor and also, i mean, also as a politician and then later in his philanthropy, he was exposed a lot to people in all kinds of circumstances, so when he and bush went to the countries that were hit by the tsunami they saw things that would blow your mind
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they were so bad and that's howy they felt. they tried to prepare for it. they watched stuff on tv and when they got there it was like nothing they had ever seen before, just that endless devastation, families destroyed, so he is seen a lot of that in asia, africa. he's not going to forget what people mean. >> i also think that about bill clinton and politics in general like what i understand about clinton as he was a public service from the beginning and hillary was super worried about money and he was in and he was just going to like like politics is sort of like what i'm talking about that i wish business was like in politics it's very clear that there is self-interest. it's also very clear people are often it except for potentially some people in the white house
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at the moment motivated by theod common good. >> that formula worked for him up until the time they got out of the white house and they were $20 million in debt and then it required a different strategy, but to address that it's true i think-- >> how did they get $20 million in debt? >> legal fees because of impeachment. that is the story of my first book "the hunting of the president". pursued by ken starr who spent 50 million or more of taxpayer money on pursuing them over mostly baseless charges and they ran up huge legal bills for themselves and they ended up paying some legal bills for people who had worked for them otherwise who had been-- would have been destitute so they had a huge debt and hillary was mocked for this you may recall--
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i forget the phrase and basically said we were in debt when we got out of the white house said it was basically true. people had told him you will make a lot of money when you are an ex-president giving speeches and you can sit on boards, which he decided not to do, but it actually took a while for various circumstances not germane to this for them to finally get out of debt. >> i have to ask you-- >> i was going to say somethingr joan love people who were religious that taken about the poverty and she entrusted a lot of money to them because she felt like she could trust themt. differently than when with a nonprofit with all that accounting going on or the layers going on and so she gave money to the salvation army and to religious people. those were her in her mind therm formidable people pick she was not religious herself, but there was something about people who committed their life and i think that's why she liked jimmy carter because he was a deeplyrs religious person.
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sorry to interrupt. >> clinton was very inspired by carter. i should say this. i talked about this in the book. they had not got along as people, very different people to say the least and they had some political clashes over the years, but clinton told me when he started to think about what he was going to do when he left the white house he had studied all of the ex- presidents and some of them had done incredible things, but carter was at the a top of the list of people who he thought he should model what he was doing. >> what i was going to ask is that you must know like why did she give the speeches to goldman sachs? >> : sax? >> yeah because at that point they had hundreds of millions. >> i never asked her that. i think there is a worry on her
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part and you can see it now because there are still people on the right who want to pursue her and they are still after her in some way, so i think there is a feeling for a need of security for some kind. i don't understand that. little known fact about that which it she did tell me when i interviewed her for the book was when she was leaving the state department her husband at that time had made the most money giving speeches of anyone in history. he was so popular and gave speeches all over the world, all kinds of groups and he's not the only one i mean, others have gave speeches as well., he was up there in the same speaking firm that arranged his speeches wanted her to come tom them and she said to them that is fine i would like to do that, but i can't give any speeches in foreign countries which is wherh most of the money is. if you go to the goal states, europe, i mean, clinton had made a lot of money in europe and asia giving speeches when he wasn't that popular immediately after the white house.
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there were problems for him that he later recovered from, but when he went abroad he was still very popular and the speaking a firm said her what you mean you can't give speeches abroad that's where all the money is and she said i can't do that because i was secretary of the state and that would look wrong and if you look at the list she never gave a single speech there. i think goldman sachs and meolth nothing is that she had worked with them on programs to advance women's businesses and so she was friendly with them and i think she misperceived how people would take that later and that's the short answer. i discussed that in the book,re but she did not do a single foreign speech for that kind of reason which was she did not want it taken the wrong way. >> we have about 15 minutes left and if anyone would like to ask a question there is microphones on either side because we are
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live on c-span. you can line up and make sure you speak into a microphone. go for it. >> we have been talking aboutssq philanthropy and we have not talked about the contemporaries bill gates and warren buffett and i would like to hear you address the question in light of the century ago of philanthropist and rich guys like carnegie had knowledge and rockefeller who left as legacies and did a lot of good in the world and contemporaries who have made a lot of money and did a lot of good. is there a natural instinct for people who make a lot of money to go in that direction or are those the outliers of that exception? >> aïoli say gates and buffett, they pledged to give away theirt fortune before they died and ray and joan-- i'm sorry joan did it. before she died she gave away all of her money and without any
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fanfare. she could have reestablished a foundation as she got older. she was broadsided by illness, so she really couldn't at the end of her life, but had a sheet her name could have lived on-- in the name could have lived on in perpetuity the way the carnegie and melons, forbes and the foundations we know today, so it's interesting she chose not to go in that direction yet she didn't want that kind of fanfare and maybe that is a woman, i don't know because maybe she did not earn the money it. that's with the old mcdonald's guy's essay. she didn't earn the money. she just give it a waste a mac the only thing that doesn't directly answer your question, but i do think sort of the foundations themselves are interesting like rockefeller and forbes do a tremendous amount of good and they like have this money and then they have to give
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away 5% per year and they usually do that in grants toto nonprofits, but often the bulk of the money is invested in corporations that haven't really thought about whether there is social impacts to those investments and so in a weird way it's both great that theyni are doing good for the world. it's certainly nice for their name and public prestige and it can be thought of also in like trenching something entrenchingh that wealth in a way that may not sort of do the most good. like when i hear about foundations and i think bill gates is like this where they want to go to zero like they are not trying to keep the 5%, but make sure they invest in a goodh way like that's going to zero because they want to do the most good and i personally think that is cool. >> all i can say about that is that if all of the billionaires who have been created in this
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society over the past 20 years decided to emulate bill gates we would live in a very different country in the world. >> and the ford family really has corrected henry ford not such great image by instituting their foundation which unless you do the research don't realize it was his legacy upp until the foundation came along. seem impossible question. about a decade ago there was a group of amazing social business people in new york city and like ben and jerry and they were involved with this group called the social ventures network peer do you know what they are still around? >> i think they are still around. i think chapters in different cities if i can correct it. >> i worked with josh, actually. he helped us get national mama the ground and they arely definitely still around.
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>> i would like to go back to your introductory about the dichotomy if that is the right word between business and philanthropy and although i understand how your billionaire bosses statement to you that i can't do both would have impact as it did. it also seems true to me that i was in business and certainly not a billionaire boss, it took all of my energy and i had all of these responsibilities and people weren't interested if i wanted to take a day off or week off and do something else. they wanted the job done tomorrow.. how does that work if you are going to be in that business? maybe it doesn't take all of your energy, but maybe it should if that's the choice you make. how do you work that in one single human being? >> if you will permit me a shameless self plug i will to you how i'm doing that. we started this business called every table and its healthy food that is affordable for everyoney
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we have a centralized kitchen produced a large amount of healthy, fresh, delicious meals like incredible meals but then at the central kitchen they are patches-- packaged in grab and go containers. it's a key economic insight which is if you think about what chipotle looks like it's like 2500 square feet of the space with 10 to 15 employees, expensive to build an expensive to run and it will likely never self a 4-dollar burrito, but press because everything is fresh that day that packaged we can open these storefronts that are 700 square feet and have no buildout kitchen, but beautiful display refrigerators and only have two employees per store with an incredibly low cost structure which allows us to pass that savings onto people who are buying the food. the other part of that as we worked it out ticket out that if
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we had to cross structure put a 30% margin on that which is fair for the fast food world we would be selling food at $6. that's cheap in a lot of places, but in a lot of places like south los angeles where life expectancy is 10 years lowerfa than the pacific palisades for a lot of reasons, but including there's no fresh food, those cannot afford fresh meals. we basically implemented what we call a variable pricing modelora where in stores we open in underserved areas by compton and south la the stories meant to be profitable, but differently, so the lower income stores of food is so between four and five bucks and we also open stores in santa monica and downtown la and we sell the same food from the same stores for $8 and the beauty is that it's profitable in every location, but very profitable in more affluent areas and that additional margin gives us the capital we need for
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growth. i don't mean to sound brag in one way, but we tried to create a structure of the business that didn't require that sort of binary you are either doing good or you are doing bad, basically. >> that's interesting and is fantastic, but my question was intended as a personalf commitment kind of-- which is what i thought your introductory statement was all about. he went from a personal commitment in business to a personal commitment andost pe philanthropy and most people can't choose. they can only afford to do one or the other. i guess i wanted to see or the others--se >> there's a whole generation of people coming up who are looking for ways to merge those two seemingly disparate threads of their lives. that's what social enterprises all about. >> was your question because like that financial realities
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met there was no other way to do it? >> when i was in business my energy was blown. my wife would complain i would come home and i was worn out. that's not okay. >> my answer to this, by the way, is you are right and there isn't much you can do and for me i was lucky i had built a bit of cushion to take time off and figure out how to do this, so i think what you are saying is 100% true and that's why i'm talking about the social enterprise ideas because wouldn't it be great if that sector took off and there were tons of jobs in that sector and you could face this decision about which job to keep. >> we have time for one more quick question and maybe one or two more quick answers.
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>> i'm all for private charity but what it said do you think this might trickle down, this philanthropy takes away societies responsibility for fixing some of the ills andte problems that they have createdd i mean it sounds like a lot of things will be defunded now, but it sounds like clinton and carter did more good after their presidency than during. >> that is a big question i confronted when i decided to write this book because i don't believe private charities are the solutions to social problems that all. [applause]. r. >> i've never believed that and after writing the book i have never believed and bill clinton doesn't believe it either. he thinks there are skills and aptitudes and connections in ths nonprofit sector and private corporations that can be applied to social problems in different ways and it should be, but if you ask him as this private sector will it solve the issue of health insurance for all, definitely not. he did not believe that before
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and he doesn't believe it now. do you believe that-- one of the things he said to me was early w on i said how does a field now that you are rich and he said joe, i love being rich. to let-- the reason i love being rich is because now i can advocate higher taxes on people like me and no one can complain about it. [laughter] >> so, if you took all of the philanthropy spending including the gates in the buffets and the rest of it and put it in a a bucket it is nothing compared to the general needs of society. it just does not begin to address that even if you doubled it, tripled it it would never get there, so it-- the aides were clinton did was paid for bt governments. it was not paid for by bill gates. bill gates participated, but it was paid for by the government of ireland, the government of norway with the norwegian oil
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well, the governments in the gulf and eventually our government under president george w bush who came up with the program which is spent billions of tax dollars to provide aids medication in africa because it was decided by him and all of these other governments that it was in the public interest. there was a private sector or private philanthropy aspect of it and clinton spearheaded this through his private charity, but it would not have happened if the government had not come in and it will stop happening if they stop which i am fearful the government under trump will do because they don't care about them.. so, your question is apt and that public sector has a huge role to play its help in these problems. >> think he. i'm sorry to say our time is up, but thank you very much to joe, lisa and assam. [applause]. >> thank you for supporting thee festival and no forget to become
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a friend of the festival so we can maintain the festival for free. you all look incredibly cozy, but if you would vacate quickly and then two of these three individuals will be out at their signing location, which is the university of arizona bookstore tent on the mall and joe will follow in about 20 minutes. have a great night. see you tomorrow. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> book tvs live coverage of the tucson festival of books continues. we are on the campus of the university of arizona, the festivalts

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